Rothko Chapel and the Art of Healing-Abdullah Antepli (S2:E22)

Something is breaking in how we talk to each other, and yelling louder is not fixing it. Lili Pierrepont sits down with Abdullah Antepli, the newly appointed president of Houston’s Rothko Chapel, to explore a different approach: art as a sanctuary for slowing down, telling the truth about our past, and rebuilding trust across deep divides.

ArtStorming is thrilled to announce our official partnership with Zeitgeist Dance Theatre and Francisco Gella Dance Works! Like us, they believe in pushing creative boundaries and amplifying vibrant artistic voices. Zeitgeist Dance Theatre and Francisco Gella Dance Works are dedicated to advancing contemporary dance and dance education in New Mexico and beyond. Together, we create a powerful, shared space where art thrives and audiences can connect deeply.

Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Transcript

Big Questions About Creativity

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever wondered what makes creative people tick? Where do their ideas come from? What keeps them energized? What kinds of things get in their way? Is their life really as much fun as it looks from the outside?

Season Focus On Legacy

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, I'm your host, Lily Pierpont, and this is Artstorming, a podcast about how ideas become paintings or poems, performances, or collections. Each episode, I'll chat with a guest from the arts community and we'll explore how the most creative among us stare down a blank canvas or reach into the void and create something new. In our inaugural season, Artstorming the City Different, we dipped our toes into the vast ocean of creativity with a focus on some of our favorite creators of Santa Fe, New Mexico. That conversation was enjoyed by artists and non-artists alike because it showed us how we can all benefit from learning how to generate something from nothing, dream bigger, charter new territories, and solve problems in new ways. In season two, we're going to take that concept of generating our lives with intention to the next level. This season, we're talking about legacy, art as legacy, and how the most creative among us tackle this rich and deeply personal subject. Welcome to Artstorming: The Art of Remembrance. This episode of Artstorming is underwritten in part by Zeitgeist Dance Theater and Francisco Gela Danceworks, organizations dedicated to advancing contemporary dance and dance education in New Mexico and beyond.

Meet The New Chapel President

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Designed perhaps with good intentions, but along the way it develops unintended consequences. Perhaps it was supposed to heal us, but it's making us sick. It was supposed to unite us, but it's dividing us. In this episode, I sit down with Abdullah Ntepli, the newly appointed president of the historic Rothko Chapel in Houston. Abdullah is a Turkish Muslim Imam whose remarkable life journey spans from conflict-torn Middle East to Duke University to the Obama-Biden administration and now into this world of sacred art. I first met Abdullah at an event in Santa Fe a few months ago. Hearing him present his vision for the chapel, I knew instantly that I had to get him on the show. He agreed to have coffee with me the next day, and it really felt like I was meeting a spiritual brother. I am beyond delighted that he agreed to share his vision with all of you today. In this conversation, we're going to explore the matchmade in heaven origins of the chapel, born from the Vatican II era social justice vision of French Catholic founders Jean and Dominique de Menil, and the multi-generational trauma of Latvian-American Jewish artist Mark Rothko. We discuss Abdullah's mission to reactivate that original vision, reviving the chapel as a global, art-inspired, spiritual think tank, and building international healing networks that build bridges across deeply entrenched cultural and religious divides. Tune in and discover why slowing down in front of a canvas can not only heal us as individuals, it can heal our fractured democracy where theology and policy fail. Let's dive in. Hello, my friend. How are you? We finally made it. I'm so excited. And I'm so excited that I'm gonna get to see you in Santa Fe in a week. Yeah, that's so great. So welcome, Abdullah. And I'm art storming with Abdullah and Tepli. And um Abdullah and I met, oh gosh, it was several months ago. I can't even, yeah, was it that long ago? December. We met at an event that Abdulla was being welcomed as the new president of the Rothco Chapel in Houston. And so I got the great opportunity to listen to you speak about that. And then I don't know, I guess I asked a question. We were chatting afterwards, and we just immediately knew that we had to continue the conversation. So we met for coffee the next day, and it was like encountering a brother from another mother. We had so much to talk about, and it was so delightful. And I was so excited to get you on the show because there were so many layers to the story of the Rothco Chapel. I'm going to open by saying this. There's the layer, since we're talking about legacy in this program and interrupting toxic legacy, addressing legacy as we want it to be. And the Rothco Chapel has so many layers of that. So there's not only the layer of the origin story of the Rothco Chapel, of how it was created by and what Dominique de Meneil's motivations were to create it. There's a story about her close friend, almost like a child to them. And there's the story about Mark Rothko himself as he became part of that. And then there's the whole mission of the Rothco Chapel, which is a legacy story in and of itself. And then to just make it even juicier, there's the whole legacy story that you bring to it, which is why I really wanted it to be you and nobody else from the Rothco Chapel, who I'm sure anybody could have given us a wonderful presentation on the Rothco Chapel and its relevance and all of that. But you, my friend, are why I really wanted to do this conversation. So I'm gonna stop talking and let's just

A Chapel Built Across Faiths

SPEAKER_01 5:38

see where we go. Maybe we can start wherever you want, with your personal story, with the chapel story, with the Demonil story, wherever you want.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Let's start with all of them at the same time. My elevator introduction of the Rothko Chapel is it's an institution that's built by a French Catholic couple by commissioning a Jewish American, Latvian-American artist, Mark Rothko, and now led by a Turkish Muslim imam. That's great. And in so many ways, the threat between French Catholics, Jewish Americans, and my own story from the Middle East is in so many ways the similarities and differences between these three bundles of identities is the story and the legacy that all these three identities, this bundle of identities, bring to this incredibly important, iconic, historical institution called Rothcourt Chapel.

Vatican II And Facing Toxic Legacy

SPEAKER_00 6:35

The founders of Rothcourt Chapel, Dominique and John de Menille, they were French Catholics, fled from the Nazi invasion of France in the 1940s, and they came and they made Houston as home. And after the world is the war is over, of course, they were looking back to Europe and looking at the scale and the depth of devastation, destruction that destroyed the entire continent, if not entire world, like any other reasonable moral people, from their new home in Houston, Texas, they were looking back and trying to make sense of this large-scale destruction. How did we not prevent this? How could we what should have been done in the 1920s and 30s and 40s? What could have at least slowed down? And what's the role of my French identity, my Catholic identity? What was the Catholic Church at best incapable of stopping this genocide, this violence, Holocaust? At worst, the faith community in general, the Catholic Church's complicity, they played a role. So they were asking these existential questions, and they were deeply moved by the Catholic Church's transformation in response to the Second World War. Second World War, another very toxic legacy. I think they were deeply devoutly Catholic, they never left the church, but they understood that the Catholic Church at best played no role in preventing the Second World War and Holocaust. But at worst they were keenly aware of the traditional, subtle Christian antisemitism that has been cooked into the Christian theology, and over the centuries, I'm not saying entire Christian theology is anti-Semitic. But if you cannot connect the dots between Jesus on the cross and the Holocaust, that means you missed the whole point. The fact that very central, incredibly powerful origin story of Christianity that moved into the heart of Christianity, the way that Christians told that story of Jesus, how he died, who was responsible, what did it represent. If you don't really understand, and Good Friday and the Palm Sunday, and all this again, incredibly important central foundational stories role in baking, cooking, and promoting every Sunday, every seasonal in churches. And later on, Muslims also joined. Muslims had their own fundamental stories. The religious anti-Semitism played a very significant role in the Holocaust. So they were devoutly Catholic, they were understanding with a sense of remorse and responsibility, repulsed by that legacy, repulsed by that reprehensible legacy of the church, legacy of European anti-Semitism. But they also were deeply moved by replacing that toxic legacy with the Vatican II. Church convened in 1959, and they started convening in 61, 62. Your audience, that everybody may be familiar with it, but the Vatican II is one of the most important watershed moments in the religious history or even in human history. Church recognized its toxic legacy, destructive legacy that promoted violence, hate, and ultimately caused large-scale devastation. But even before Holocaust, pogroms and mob violence against Jews and Jewish hatred, it was part of this toxic legacy that was so embedded in Christian Europe for a very long time. So Vatican II, for the first time in the history of 2000 years of history, they were changing the entire furniture in their mind. They were eliminating these very central theologies. They were stopped telling the stories. They were muting those toxic legacies that kept pumping hatred, bigotry, xenophobia into the hearts and minds of their believers and say we will no longer tell these stories in the way that we tell. We made a horrible mistake. It wasn't historically even true to begin with, holding people responsible and cursing an entire nation and building a whole theology. What is quite phenomenal is not only they were deeply moved and transformed by the Vatican II, the change, the watershed change of the Catholic Church is going through, the Demenils, they really didn't get stuck in that toxic legacy.

Shifting To A Non-Denominational Sanctuary

SPEAKER_00 11:12

For them, the similar toxic legacy, reprehensible legacy in the United States, in their new home, was civil rights. For them, the original sin was not the traditional Christian anti-Semitism, but the deeply seated anti-black racism in American society. They were telling themselves, oh my God, the entire Europe and church is changing. At least they are committing themselves to end these toxic and reprehensible, poisonous, evil legacies and charting a different course in the future of Europe as a continent and also the church, Catholic Church in the future. A similar transformation is needed in America. The similar facing of your original sin needed in America. And for them who became incredibly wealthy in the 1950s in the oil boom of Houston, they wanted to use the similar kind of energy and in a large scale change the hearts and minds of American people towards race and race relations. So Dominique and John were looking at the legacy of the church, legacy of the Europe that caused death and devastation, but they were also deeply moved to the European continents and the Catholic Church response in the context of Second Vatican II. Vatican II, 1961, 62, and 63, they were changing and they were making incredible large-scale transformation in the continent as well as in the theology of the churches. They were getting rid of all these hateful pieces of theology. They were putting a new and helpful interpretation. But they were not stuck with Europe. They were not stuck with that toxic legacy. And they said a similar transformation is needed for the United States in race relations. Our toxic legacy, our moral stain in our history is the ethnic cleansing that has done to Native Americans and the intercontinental slavery that we should use and mobilize what the transformation is happening in Europe and push for a similar transformation, similar challenging, facing a toxic legacy of race relations, a toxic legacy of slavery and segregation in the United States. They wanted to build a chapel, initially a Catholic chapel, and they had a very close friend who were their conversation partner and tragically and suddenly died. That macro level transformation back in Europe and that micro-level, incredibly tragic and sudden death of a very close friend combined them to force them to think about a sacred space. Initially, they imagined this to be a Catholic chapel as part of St. Thomas University. But they understood that the Vatican II's energy from all the way from Vatican to Houston, Texas, it was going to trickle down much more slowly. They understood that this church, even the top is changing, the entire body of the church, it's going to take time, and they had no patience for that kind of slow traditionalism, incremental change. They were deeply Catholic, but they were almost like a thorn in the thigh of the Catholic Church and the Catholic fathers that they were interacting with. They understood that the church is not ready to walk in their speed,

Why Rothko Was The Artist

SPEAKER_00 14:41

and therefore they shifted from being a Catholic church into an independent, non-denominational, non-religious, secular but sacred church. Another incredible struggle and toxic legacy that the Manils were challenging, they were people of art. They deeply understood art. They believe in the power of art, magic of art, that art could heal where modern medicine cannot. Art could unite where a policy or a law cannot. And they were challenging the kind of superficial, materialistic, transactional legacy of the art. They wanted this chapel to be art-inspired, but they were despised with the understanding that art is for elitism. Art is an exclusive club, art has no role to play, social impact. They were trying to undo many wrong and toxic legacies at the same time. And they were looking for an artist who will create an artistic expression that will capture the spirit of the Vatican II and create a sacred place for individual and collective transformation, individual and collective change of hearts and minds. They understood that ideas change the world. The powerful ideas can electrify people, get into their system, and force them to behave and live differently. Again, both individually and collectively, and they knew exactly who to commission. Who to commission? Mark Rothko, whose parents have endured multi-generational, centuries-long anti-Semitism in Europe. They ran away from that Jewish hatred of Soviet Russia, came to the United States, and Mark Rothko's story in itself is quite remarkable. That he found his own initial inspiration not in New York, not at Yale University, not in Seattle, but he found the inspiration in the Renaissance art in Florence, Italy. As a Jewish American who's trying to process his ancestors' trauma and suffering, how would you understand that multi-generational trauma, that centuries-long hatred? And in the sacred Renaissance art in the story of Jesus' crucifixion, again, it goes back to those central theologies. His initial inspiration to art, he was a terrible drawer. He didn't take a single drawing class entire life, his entire life. He was a socialist. He wanted to change hearts and minds. Again, you might think what a Latvian-American artist and the French Catholic Demenils have anything in common. In so many ways, they were made from the same ethical and moral fabric. They were trying to prevent people from revealing the worst of themselves. They were looking for an opportunity or medium, an outlet that could enable and empower people to reveal the best of themselves. For them, for the Demenils, it was art. For Mark Rothko, it was his own paintings. He all he wanted to do was to be left alone, listen Mozart, and built for a sacred temple, built for a place that could challenge toxic legacies of the past and chart a different course for the future. So it was matchmade in heaven. Absolutely was.

Reactivating The Chapel As Think Tank

SPEAKER_00 19:55

He finished everything, but he spent longer time designing the interior of the chapel. He was both the painter, artist, as well as the architect at the same time. And he spent more time meticulously designing the triplets here, the single is there, the larger one is there, because these are not 14 individual paintings. These are all one piece of art, including the chapel itself. And coming back to the third identity, a Turkish Muslim Imam who is now leading this effort in so many ways, as I mentioned briefly in our earlier conversation, I feel I met the Minels, I met Mark Rothko. They are from the same spiritual moral fabric of my own well-being. My life, which I'm not going to bore you or your audience, is full of challenging these toxic political, ideological, religious legacies that has constantly, perpetually produced violence, hatred, and bigotry, and challenging them in creative educational ways. I grew up in the broken Middle East. I ran away and or fought against all forms of evil and violence and bigotry and hatred in the society that I grew up with. And I found myself at Duke University using a higher education as a platform in bringing people together, uniting people in and challenging toxic legacies with a prophetic voice, prophetic understanding. Because if you look, all the wisdom traditions of the world, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, they are built on prophetic stories. Whether you you believe literally, historically, these people, those prophetic figures, lived or didn't live. It's beyond the point. But there's an element in every society of prophetic voices that speak truth to. The power that generates moral awakening in the collective consciousness of people and lead them to moral action. These are, in so many ways, paradoxical voices and realities. They are of the people, but they give the harshest criticism to people. They point out and behold a mirror before their ethical moral failures and force them to change. And that was my life. In so many ways, the Minels are my siblings from Catholic French mothers, and Mark Rothko is my brother from a Latvian Jewish background. His story is in so many ways similar. There are some striking similarities. So a lot of people, when I accepted the job at Rothko Chapel, were incredibly surprised because there was another toxic legacy emerging after De Menil died. After Dominique de Menil not only built the chapel, not only did she wanted to create this magical sacred environment where people could experience individual transformation, she always had the global and the national international mind. She wasn't only interested in individual change. She was interested in collective change, especially in the context of civil rights. And she used Chapel and activated Chapel in such successful ways to be the convening platform, a convening space where people of different faith or no faith, people of different ideologies and backgrounds, convene. It was an incubating space for big ideas to emerge. It was a platform, a podium, a bhima, a pulpit that big ideas are spoken of. Those toxic legacies have been challenged. And therefore, very early on, she brought Mandela. Dalai Lama came to Rothko Chapel, Desmond Tutor came, President Carter came, and the illuminaries from around the world, the chapel in the 1970s, 80s, it was a remarkable place. And it wasn't a museum, it was never seen as a gallery space. It wasn't a dedicated chapel to Mark Rothko's paintings per se. It was always almost like a spiritual, art-inspired think tank where big ideas are cooked and presented to the world. It happens to many institutions, unfortunately, especially when charismatic and powerful founders like Dominique Demeniel died. Chapel gradually lost that ability to keep that platform and brand power, that moral vibrancy, that moral radiance to the world. And the leadership board and supporters and lovers of the chapel, they were looking to challenge this legacy that is not serving, that is no longer in the original intent, original purpose, original goal of the chapel. They were looking for someone or a team of leadership who could come and activate this original foundational ideas of creating grids of moral energy, moral vibrancy that could make or force communities, both local level in Houston, in Texas, but also on the NASA international level. And in so many ways, everything I have done in my entire life, from Turkey to Middle East to Southeast Asia, was preparing me for this role as modestly as I can put. In so many ways, my track record is exactly in that trajectory that it was another match made in heaven. That the current leadership of Rothcock Chapel, especially on the board level, they were inviting a leader that is spiritually oriented, that understands the role of faith, that understand the power of faith, and spend a considerable amount of time or leadership in bringing people of different backgrounds, different ideologies together. So that's why I'm here. And I turned, I used my brief elevator pitch to a much broader, long and winded answer. But I hope that gives a broad spectrum of why I'm here and why I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

It's perfect. And I another match made in heaven is me meeting you because I think you've touched on from the name of our organization, Art Bridge, and the way that our efforts are to try to bridge people using the arts as a platform for conversation into much deeper, much more thought-provoking topics and ideas, the way we are talking about interrupting legacy, creating legacy that's powerful and all that. It's it's a total privilege for me to be able to have you on this platform. And I'm curious to know from you what do you plan to do with this amazing opportunity that you see in front of you? I know that you you say you don't want to touch on your personal stuff, and that's some of the things that we did touch on at breakfast a few months ago. And there were so many things there that I found so compelling that I hope that some of that gets, without putting you on the spot, that some of that gets woven into this next part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

First of all, I'm incredibly feel privileged and blessed that in my all years of work as an imam, as a scholar, as an academic, as an intellectual, in terms of forcing, facilitating, promoting behavioral change, undoing toxic legacies, I used education, religion, scripture, theology, even policy. I work in the second Obama Biden administration. But I've never had the pleasure of utilizing the power of art. This is completely new

Art As A Tool For Democracy

SPEAKER_00 28:14

to me. And it is quite remarkable how art could become much more effective in changing hearts and minds. That the theology cannot, the law cannot. So, in so many ways, this is a learning opportunity. I feel a kid in a canvas store. I would like to utilize and understand how art could be not just the place and space for the elite to enjoy, but art has a moral mission, art has a social mission. The authentic art that is embedded in the universal values, universal human values, could activate human imagination, open horizons in a way that many other tools in our toolbox cannot. Because what is Toxic Legacy? Toxic Legacy is a malfunctioning software. Often, not all of them, but almost often, it is a software that used worked for a while, it's no longer working at best, or is backfiring, it is slowing the entire system down, it is sucking up the creative energy of the individual or a society or an institution. You need to undo this malfunctioning software. You have to unlock it, you have to sort of delete that app that is constantly consuming the energy and then re-download it in a way. So art has a beautiful way of unlocking that malfunctioning programs in our system that is no longer working at its best, or it is doing just the opposite purpose. It was supposed to heal us, it's making us sick. It was supposed to unite us, but it's dividing us. So I would like to go as deep as possible with this leadership because many of the things that I have done in my life, how do you combat hate? How do you make sure religion, faith, and religious identities is not becoming a source of violence, hatred, bigotry, xenophobia? How could we motivate people to understand difference not as a source of threat, not as a source of sort of hatred and bigotry, but a source of education and learning that difference is there for a reason that then without flattening it and erasing those differences, I can still make sense of that difference. I can turn it into a source of celebration, learning, and enlightenment. Again, art has a beautiful way of expanding the hearts and minds that I would like to do. This is one area I would like to go as much as possible. I am not completely pessimistic. I am extreme. However, I am very, very alarmed. I came to this country, I became an American citizen because our 250 years of experiment in creating a multi-layered, multi-religious, multicultural democracy is one of the most successful attempts to understand the human diversity. Despite all its flaws, despite all its mistakes, if you look where we were 250 years ago and where we are now, we came a long way. But I still believe the better days of American democracy, better days of America, better days of our social fabric. That is a country that people are judged by what they do, not by who they are. Who they are is just the source of celebration, source of richness of the society. You will only be judged by what you do, by your action. Is one of the fundamental ideals of American democracy, our civil liberties, our bill of rights. But um, it's facing enormous amount of challenges today. More and more Americans are becoming increasingly more vulnerable and a losing trust to our democratic institutions or becoming more vulnerable in these increasing xenophobia, hatred, increasing racism, or their ability to understand the ethnic, religious, sexual orientation, race differences. So again, like 1960s, there is an incredible amount of work. If the world needs Rothko Chapel, in the way that I try to summarize in the initial part of our conversation, it is now. So I want to be able to answer that call through Rothko Chapel. I want this chapel to, by activating its original outrageous ambitions about the about the work that we can do, the policies that we can influence, the new type of leadership that we can train through the chapel's educational art-inspired uh mission. I would like to see if Rothka Chapel could be one of hopefully many institutions who is in the process or in the business of repairing our damaged democracy, repairing our damaged social fabric, and without yelling at, without adding more noise to the already incredibly loud and cluttered space, by inviting people to slow down, by inviting people to slow their thinking, slow their judgments. Again, you can hold on to those judgments, but there is a way in which this kind of alarmist rage baiting, rage and anger baiting public discourse could we just be one of those places where meaningful, constructive, healing, uniting conversations could take place. That's what I want.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

I I love that is so yummy. And if only you could just be the White House instead of just the Rothco Chapel. But to that point, when we were when you were making the presentation to the group that I when I first met you, one of the things that you touched on was creating a network of places and sanctuaries like the Rothco Chapel, and that you were in the process of creating partnerships globally so that we had this network, which really is truer to, in my mind, the way democracy rolls out at its optimal expression. Instead of having a top-down leadership like a monarchy, you have this enlightened network of places all across the globe. So say a little bit more about some of the partnerships that you are establishing to

Global Partnerships For Healing Networks

SPEAKER_01 34:37

take to spread that the beauty of everything you just said.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Thank you. And again, Dominique and John, as they were building the chapel a year before and a couple of years after the chapel opened, they knew that they cannot do these kind of outrageous big ideas on their own by themselves. So they took months at a time, trips to Middle East, North Africa, China, Vatican, Japan. They were desperately looking for people who will be part of that grit of spiritual and moral, art-inspired healers network so that they could do this global work together. And in so many ways, I'm following their footsteps and since I right, I am activating some of the previous networks and partnerships that unfortunately has died down. For example, with the Carter Center. I visited Atlanta early on in my career as the president of Rothko Chapel, and we're going to be doing so much remarkable good work in their human rights division and us in the spiritual and human rights section. I made two visits to Vatican, and Vatican's interfaith office are remarkably eager to activate all the work that's been done in the past in the 1970s and 80s, but even go beyond. Thankfully, we have this great opportunity to previous Argentinian Pope, unlike many things, any other popes that I have seen, push the interfaith conversation, meaningful cross-faith conversations, meaningful and impactful, non-ceremonial, thoughtful cross-faith conversations to a whole different level. And his successor, our own American Pope, Pope Leo, is willing to take it to a whole different level and building a network of global spiritual and faith institutions who are willing to tackle the evil and hatred that comes within religion and uniting religious leaders and fighting against internal or external voices of exclusion unwelcome. Another partnership that I'm extremely excited is the Abrahamic Family House. Allow me to sort of explain that unique experiment in United Arab Emirates capital, Abu Dhabi, about 15 years ago, under the leadership of Pope Francis, the previous Pope, they built a campus where we have an active open synagogue next door to a Catholic church, and that is next door to a mosque, Sunni mosque, affiliated with one of the most important Sunni prestigious theological institutions of Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt. In so many ways, they built this remarkable campus to say can Judaism, Christianity, and Islam find ways to challenge the toxic legacies of these religious wars, sectarian wars, division, and hatred. They are in the same business. They built this beautiful campus, but in their programmatic ambition, they just need partners. They don't know how to do programming because United Arab Emirates is still a homogeneous culture in so many ways. So they are very eager to partner with Rothko Chapel. And the last one I will mention is quite incredible from Japan, Tokyo. Similar to the Miniles in the 1960s in Houston, many Americans, especially the Rockefeller family, they visited Japan in 1945-46 after the war ended. They were asking the similar questions. How did we not see this coming? They were doing business, they had Japanese friends in the 1920s and 30s. How could we not see this clash and collusion course happening and drop these two atomic bombs and created this incredible devastation? And what can we do now to recover, heal? But also make sure we prevent the future genocides and wars and similar devastations that are happening. And they built remarkable educational cultural institutions, one of which is the International House of Japan. They built a beautiful Japanese tea garden as a symbolic convening space, convening platform. And every single institution the Rockefellers and the Japanese partners built, but especially this particular one, International House of Japan, which I'm going to visit again in a couple of weeks, is credited for the successful reconciliation between Japan and the United States after the Second World War. They built what Hiroshima was in 1945 and 46, was similar to what Germany was at that time. In so many ways, it's similar to where war devastated places like Gaza today, or Ukraine, or Sudan. Is that a way we can turn this successful reconciliation accessible as an educational content to the people who are now living incredible, desperate lives, that their future could be what Hiroshima is today? Hiroshima is now a million plus people, a thriving city. So these organizations who have done this in the Japanese context are willing to make this experience accessible and create educational opportunities to people who are living in a war or post-war context.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

What I love, this is again all so incredibly beautiful. And what I love about the fact that art is being woven into the conversation is it's so often I think of art as the right brain quadrant of our culture. And a lot of the educational, and I guess to a certain extent, a lot of spirituality can come through right brain thinking, but art provides a language that when there is no language for something, when the the linguistic impasse cannot be achieved, there is something about the meta-language elements of art that bring us, I think of it as like the fragrance of humanity or the or the I call about the echo

When Art Becomes A Meta-Language

SPEAKER_01 40:46

of humanity. And the arts are all they navigate in that universe. And so when we have a difficult time coming together with words or expressing ourselves, sometimes you just sit in a chapel and it all gets done, right? And I there are one of the things that I try to talk about on this program and in our work is the miracle of that communication that is so hard to, for people like me in a small nonprofit organization trying to describe what the impact we have on the world is. When the impact you have on the world is exposing somebody to a piece of artwork and then having them be awestricken to the point where they can't even do or say anything, then we know we've gotten our job done, but it's not a very good way to build metrics, right? So speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Beautifully put. You have a remarkable example in the context of Bosnian genocide. After the genocide, Bosnia-Herzegova, they fought hundreds of thousands, millions of innocent people died. With the Orthodox Serbians, Muslim Bosnians, and Catholic Croatians, they had to learn how to be a nation. But when it comes to deciding on the terminology and the language of the national anthem, they couldn't agree. They couldn't come

A Student Sees The Paintings Turn On

SPEAKER_00 42:11

up with the national anthem. With the inspiration of American genius diplomat Richard Holbrook and Marilyn Albright, they said then our national anthem will be just the music. It'll be only the music. It is quite remarkable how melodies could replace toxic words, or it can take humanity or the imagination beyond the limitations of any vocabulary that is incredibly limited, toxic, incredibly its connotation is always inspiring old unhealed wounds. What a remarkable thing. I think your explanation is just spot on. Art can be that medium. Another incredible example is a couple of weeks ago, I moved into the chapel. I walked into the chapel because we were welcoming a group of high schoolers. We want to bring as much young generation as possible. That's another very important. We have to invest with that magical power of art. Unfortunately, throughout the United States, art education, art involvement is being eliminated from our public school system so unwisely. So we would like to bring as many students as possible to chapel, and thankfully, it's working. Busloads of young boys and girls and men and women are coming and getting inspired by the chapel. But this particular group, they walk into the chapel as our paintings are large and all in the first initial instance, they look all dark. And when high schoolers walked in, they literally thought these paintings were screens and they were going to turn on at some point because everything they do is all about screens. And one of the male students, I think Carlos, 16-year-old, he asked his teacher, why are they not turning on? Why are they not turning on? I respectfully approached to him and said, Why don't you sit down, close your eyes for like for three minutes only? Think about what is so important to you. What is so important? What is weighing on your heart? Think about it. Your eyes closed for three minutes and look back to see if those screens will turn on. And then I walked out, I was welcoming another group of people. He came out of the chapel and hugged me. He said, They turned on. They just turned on. His mother was battling with breast cancer. He just couldn't develop a language to process why this is happening to his mom. Why so early on he's facing this very painful moment in his life. He said anything I heard didn't make sense. But after that slowing down for three minutes and intentionally looking into these dark panels, that art creates that magical, it turned on in a way that I can't even conceptually verbalize or communicate this. But I feel I have a way of processing this painful moment in my life as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Oh man, thank you so much for that story. That is just makes my heart so happy. I'm so sad for that young man, of course. But that is exactly what we are trying to point to. And to your point about slowing down, I mean, one of the things that we are trying to do with all of our initiatives is reclaiming human creativity, not necessarily artistry, but human creativity from this hyper-automated world. And the fact that you told that story, it's so perfect that you've expected them to turn on. And it's in turning off where some of the magic really starts to happen. And so what kind of programs are available through the Rothco Chapel programs to help people come in and slow down? Is that is there anything? Is there any kind of a guided, ritualized program for that?

SPEAKER_00 45:56

We do, we have a series of programs. First of all, our chapel is open from Tuesday through Sunday from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. for an individual, unengineered, unnegotiated, individual reflection and meditation with some guided tour if you want to have further conversation. We have a beautiful welcoming center. So that flow of traffic has increased significantly, and more and more people are coming. Even to just charge

Programs For Reflection And Leadership

SPEAKER_00 46:27

their emotional batteries, even to just slow down and silence this constant bombardment and distraction, have a 20-minute, 30-minute unmediated because we don't allow electronics in the chapel. This became a safe place where they can seek refuge from all the noise and the cluttery and the disruption and interruptions of the life as much as possible. And we do a series of three, four different types of programs. We do public programming based on a particular theme. And this current year's theme was health justice. How can we focus and zoom in and understand health not as a clinical term, not as a medical term, but as a holistic term? What are the determinations of health, both internal, external, and social and otherwise? And we did a number of programs because many majority of the people who benefit the most from the chapel are people in Saint Louis, they are trying to belong something. They are looking for a purpose, they are looking for a meaning, and therefore they are yearning for that kind of spaces where they could belong. And for the whole year, we did a number of artistic, art-inspired programs, music, panels, conversations, and we will complete this by the end of this month. Our next five years, we are going to focus on democracy and citizenship. Can we slow people down and reflect on the sacred nature of this sacred struggle? How do you build a society? How do you build systems of governance that recognize and eliminate systemic racism, structural inequality, and build within its governance system more equitable, more just, more fair societies? So we will be focusing on not exclusively, but primarily on series of programming. But in the third category, which I'm most excited about, is not just individual reflection, which is fine and which is magical, which is changing lives, not one of these lectures, panels, and programs and music concerts, which we will continue to do. But in addition to all of this, what I'm initiating and starting is what I have done in North Carolina, what I have done in Jerusalem, to select a group of a cohort of maybe 25, 30 emerging young leaders, between 25 to 40, who are elected officials, nonprofit leaders, corporate leaders, people who have a few decades of leadership ahead of them, and they have enough track record that they are in a position to have power and exercise power. And if given enough opportunity and right tool set and skills, they could shift the society for something better and quietly run leadership training programs. And we will design and we will recruit people from a broad spectrum of ideological, religious, and socioeconomic and racial, ethnic, religious differences. We will bring people together who otherwise naturally will not come together. They will not see those kinds of people. There will be people from political center left and political center right, depending on the issues and the topics. And not just one-off lecture, but we will bring them over a year, several in-person and several virtual facilitated conversations and leadership training program for a deeply relationship-building focused again, because the chapel provides that space. Chapel already, if you bring the right kind of people, it activates and unlocks. And if you do it in the private space, we have done quite a few experiments already. We brought Israelis and Palestinians who otherwise will never meet in the way that they do. And we are trying to bring liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats in the same way, investing pipelines of new type of leadership programs that will make a difference in the future of our democracy and citizenship.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

That's incredible. And I was involved with a program years ago. I think it was called Threshold. And one of the things that we did were we were bringing artists together from those opposing camps, let's call it, Israelis and Palestinian musicians to make music together for artist residencies, and likewise with other arts, Republican and Democrat art residency together, or just I would love to see an art component of that. Because I feel like, again, it sometimes, as you indicated with the national anthem, sometimes when the words don't do it, the artistry and that creativity, but I, you know, that's not to say that I don't want to take anything away from the creative nature of what you are proposing, because that is exactly that out-of-the-box thinking is what describes creativity for us at Art Bridge. It's not just about the arts.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

And I don't want to trivialize anybody's work. There are so many good people already working on these kinds of bridge-building programs, trying to bring people from opposing sides from or even conflict areas. But with two exceptions, most of them, I don't know of any, they don't know how to do this through the medium of art. So this this medium is incredibly powerful. They use conflict resolution, reconciliation studies, which is wonderful. And many of these, unfortunately, programs are avoiding religion altogether. Avoiding faith altogether, which we will go right after. Because to think that faith. Because I understand why people avoid religion. Because if you don't know how to handle faith and religion, it is often divisive. What do they say? In a polite company, you're not supposed to speak about religion, politics, and sex. But we will go right after, we will try to understand the role of faith in our current problems, social, ethical, moral problems. And many of these programs tend to be for logistical reasons. I think one of lectures, you invite your favorite Israeli, favorite Palestinian, favorite, favorite gamar, one lecture, one panel, which is wonderful. I don't want to trivialize it, but it doesn't break the fever, it doesn't de-escalate the polarization in any substantial and substantive level. Then therefore, year-long or even multi-year program, alumni program is necessary. So there is a need for this, and we have a very niche power of art. And we know how to activate this. We've been in this business for about 55 years. So we will focus on this as much as possible. And I didn't realize it's already 4:30. I don't know why we only scheduled for an hour for this. I this could go on for another hour easily.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

This is a conversation I never want to end. I would love to be a part of everything that you're doing forever. And I appreciate it so much that you came on.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Maybe as an ending note, I encourage everybody who is in the audience, without shying away from the difficulties that we are facing as a nation, as a society, there are so many people who are rightfully, legitimately, and even often accurately complaining about the darkness, but not enough people are lighting a candle. Not enough people are promoting, proposing, and suggesting a set of solutions. Rothko Chapel is

Closing Hopes And Listener Support

SPEAKER_00 54:03

one of many places who doesn't want to just wasting time in life, this precious life. Yeah, we only spent a couple of decades in this precious earth. We would like to see if we can be as an institution at a very critical time where our democracy and citizenship, our social and democratic institutions are facing these enormous existential threats, where we can be one of those places where we can be a source of inspiration, healing, and unity, and we can propose different set of discourse for our future, for our democracy moving forward. I hope you will be part of it.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

I will, and what an incredible legacy to leave all of us. And we talk about legacy is not what you leave to people, it's what you leave in people. And you've already left, planted your legacy in me. So for that, I am so grateful.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Thank you very much, my friend. To be continued, looking forward to our deepening friendship and partnership, and looking forward to engaging with your audience who will be listening to this conversation. I feel grateful. I feel blessed.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

Thank you so much, Abdullah. Safe travel, so see you in Santa Fe.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

See you in Santa Fe soon.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

It was great to have you. Bye. So thanks for joining us today. Support for Artstorming comes from Zeitgeist Dance Theater and Francisco Gela Danceworks. You can find them at franciscogellaDance.com and Zeitgeist Dance Theater.org. Artstorming is brought to you and supported by Artbridge NM and listeners like you. Look for us on your favorite podcast platforms or wherever you listen. Your subscriptions, likes, comments, and shares help us to reach more listeners and attract the support we need to thrive in these challenging times. If you love what you hear, please consider making a contribution. We rely on your help to keep these conversations going. Every dollar you contribute goes directly into programs that support our mission. And we've been offered a matching grant that will match every dollar that you contribute. That means more compelling stories, more in depth articles, and an even greater impact on our community. Please visit our website at www.artbridgenm.org and thank you so much for being an essential part of our work.